Thoughts on FR-S

"BadMotorScooter" (badmotorscooter) 07/31/2014 at 10:30 • Filed to: fr-s, brz, toyobaru, mods

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So I have a couple thousand miles on the FR-S now (not my car in pic, mine is stock) and am beginning to understand the car a bit better. I read about how the FR-S/BRZ were built to be modified, how the platform supports customization and is a blank canvas for owners to make the car their own. But after driving the car for some time, I'm not so sure this is true, at least for performance modifications.

The FR-S is an extraordinarily balanced car. Meaning that suspension characteristics are balanced with transmission and engine power, power delivery is balanced with the suspension and stock tire design, weight is balanced with suspension, gearing, and power. The car reminds me of the S2000, in that it is highly engineered and balanced, and modifications often don't improve performance, in fact they often upset the balance of the car and make it perform worse overall. Yes, you might improve 0 to 60 time, or cornering grip, etc but the overall balance of the car can be easily upset.

Somebody asked me recently how I liked the FR-S so far, and I said that it is a rare car that is greater than the sum of its parts. This is because of the finely engineered balance, like a carefully tuned piano. Japanese cars are often criticized for lacking character or soul, because they don't have any obvious, overt characteristics like cartoon styling, or raucous snorting 707HP engines, or airplane sized wings. They also often don't have any glaring faults that also give a car personality, like a Jag leaking oil, or a Ferrari catching fire. So owners try to add personality with modifications, but doing so can sometimes end up with something worse overall than the original.

All of this makes me wonder if the platform wasn't made for modification, at least not major performance modifications. Adding a turbo or supercharger would surely upset the balance, requiring appropriate modifications in other areas to restore balance. People say that Toyota/Subaru have not added a turbo option because they intend for the aftermarket to do this, and for users to upgrade as they choose. I think they are not doing a turbo because the current 200HP NA boxer is a critical puzzle piece in the engineering solution. Adding a turbo means, upgrading the clutch, transmission, diff, axles, tires & wheels, intercooler and plumbing, brakes, and suspension. At what cost in weight and dollars? So you have a 270HP, 3100lb, $32k car that handles worse? I don't think I want that.

I may not be the typical FR-S/BRZ buyer. I'm middle aged and own/owned a number of performance cars, some very fast. I bought the FR-S because it is so well balanced and is one of the best 'pure' sports cars you can buy right now. I think I will keep the FR-S stock for now, and consider any performance modifications very carefully.

Tripper > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 10:40

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I am normally a no-mods (or very minor mods) guy, and my best friend has a BRZ (hes a mod the shit out of everything for better or worse guy). So after 6 months or so of ownership, hes got the geometry setup for auto-x and the Jackson Racing supercharger kit+tune and whatever other odds and ends he needed to make everything work safely. He has probably spent right around 30k car+mods. While the FRS/BRZ is well balanced, I have to side with what seems to be the majority and say that it's way too slow out of the box. It's much more fun to drive with the extra power (I'm not sure how much) but the car can keep up with my E90 M3. Either way my favorite thing about the car is the driver position, power or no power its definitely a driver's car.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 10:43

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As long as you dont go over the top with mods there isnt much you can mess up. I tend to stick with small mods such as sticky tires, suspensions upgrades (coilovers and anti roll bars), and small performance upgrades such as free flowing exhaust and good cold air intake.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 10:44

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This is essentially my line of thinking as well. I'm 26, this is my first performance car, and I have always been all about modification. With the FR-S, I intend to do very little. New wheels (Gram Lights 57DRs) will be coming next spring, and in time I plan to do a header back exhaust with a tune, to eliminate the torque dip and add give it a more aggressive sound. Beyond that, I don't plan on modifying the car. I have ridden in a turboed FR-S that is putting down around 460-480whp, and it was fast, very fast, but it definitely felt like a highly modified car. (i.e. not composed and seemingly very finicky) I love the composure of the car as it is, and I get the same feeling that messing with it much will have a significant impact on that composure. Oh and with my exhaust I will get a catted header and front pipe, because I don't want to deal with CELs that have to be eliminated with tunes or the risk of failing emissions one day.

Alfalfa > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 10:44

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I honestly feel like it was marketed this way to appeal to the WRX/tC customer base. They both seem to be big on aftermarket stuff (mostly really ugly). It makes sense that they would cater the FR-S to that already existing fanbase. I think the car is gorgeous just the way it is, and I would likely keep it bone-stock, or pretty near stock, if I had one.

BadMotorScooter > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 07/31/2014 at 10:49

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That sounds a lot like turbo'd S2000s. They can be very quick. and their own sort of fun, but it is not better than a stock car, in my opinion. I have the TRD intake and exhaust on my FR-S, which are OK but for what they cost and what they do I'm not sure they are worth it. They don't add enough HP to alter the balance or composure of the car.

BadMotorScooter > Tripper 07/31/2014 at 10:52

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I think a car modded very well, perhaps like your friend's, can be a good thing. But it is difficult and expensive to do heavy mods and maintain the balance and composure. It seems that if you go too far down that curve, then you may be better off with a different car to start with.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 10:55

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S2000 is another dream car of mine, and I will own one someday. However, it will likely be an NA build.

If I ever do go FI on the FR-S, which would be a very long time from now, I'd probably go with a supercharger. Yeah, from everything I've read, you will not get significant performance gains from an intake or catback on the Twins. It takes a header and a tune to get the same results you see with most other cars when adding an intake and catback. Getting a good header with a tune evens out that low-end torque dip, which is really the only thing I'd like to improve. For the exhaust, I think I will likely get the Tomei 60s. Since I know I won't gain much hp from a catback, I figure I might as well drop the most weight I can without spending thousands on an Amuse Titan R1 (as much as I would love to do that). lol

All in all, this is an amazing car. I think they truly embodied the spirit of the AE86. It's a small, lively, and harmonized car without a lot of power; but it doesn't need the power. The car is designed to be able to drive it to the max by just about anyone just about anywhere, which you simply can't do with a lot of power.

Decay buys too many beaters > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 10:56

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Well things can be improved, just not cheaply. If one thinks they can improve the handling with $1000 coilovers they are in for a nice surprise. I find that good tires, stiffer suspension, brake pads, and a full exhaust are all that is needed to make this car a blast on the track/autocross.

Oh and oil cooler, very important for a long term happy engine. That's honestly the only performance misstep I see the engineers making in designing this car.

Tripper > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 11:01

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Agreed. I would never do what he's done. He's out of warranty on what is basically a brand new car, and he will never make even close to the money he spent back on the mods. However the car is fantastic to drive.

I on the other hand can't stand to be bothered with the woes of tuning, a perfect example, we both had 04 STi's at one point, neither of us were satisfied. He modded his until it exploded, I bought an M3 and we probably spent the same $.

Spaze > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 11:05

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I'd have to agree with you that its a very balanced car. But I do think it could be a tiny bit faster. No, it should not have 300hp like the Sti, its just not that type of car. But a good NA 220-250hp would probably do worlds for this car. Its not enough to really over power the cars other systems like the brakes or suspension. It would also not take the car into the "stupid-fast" realm which, i fear, too many cars are getting into.

Take the E36, it was a great chassis that was very balanced. The power output was never anything stupid, but the car just felt amazing. The harder you pushed it the better it seemed to perform. That and you can turn all the silly electronics off!

I love what the FR-S/BRZ twins, and would own one in an instant. Its just hard for me to own something like that when I feel there are FAR better cars that are balanced, and cheaper. Namely, the E36/E46 M3's (though I'm not sure how much cheaper they actually are, lol).

BadMotorScooter > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 07/31/2014 at 11:06

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Completely agree with your last paragraph. I am not an anti-mod guy at all, but after learning this car a bit I realy don't think it needs more power, for what it is designed to do. It is not a muscle car. I've had some very fast and powerful cars, and although fun in their own way, there is absolutely truth in that you can't use the speed or power on the street. I would not have said this if I had not experienced it, but it is true.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 11:09

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Yeah, I've gotten the exact same feeling driving my car. I finally have something worth modding though, my first two cars were a 2000 Corolla and 2005 4Runner, so I will end up doing the light mods of new wheels and exhaust but that's all. Unless I can get a significant enough employee discount on the SACHS coilover kit. If the price is right, it would be very cool to have. Especially considering that I am certain I'd be the only Toyobaru in NA (possibly the only other one in the world, apart from SACHS test car lol) with that coilover kit. We will see though. (Would definitely keep the stock suspension though)

BadMotorScooter > Spaze 07/31/2014 at 11:11

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Good point, and I agree another 25HP or so wouldn't hurt. I'd like to know how much engineering went into the 200HP stat - that is, did they set that as a spec and design around it, or did the NA Subaru engine just happen to provide 200HP and they would have been OK with 190-220HP or some range.

Reigntastic > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 11:15

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Adding a turbo means, upgrading the clutch, transmission, diff, axles, tires & wheels, intercooler and plumbing, brakes, and suspension.

Same exact block is used in the WRX with a turbocharger, very little R&D would need to be done and the parts are already in production.

BadMotorScooter > Reigntastic 07/31/2014 at 11:22

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Right, but all those things would be needed and would add weight and cost to the car. Even if the parts are already on the shelf, they still need to be added to the car. The engine and turbo are just one piece of the equation. Considering the latest special edition FR-S is $30k US, a turbo version would be at least $32k, maybe more. Not sure that's worth it.

Reigntastic > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 11:34

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The WRX only costs ~$1k more than the BRZ, you're smoking crack if you think it'll suddenly make it cost $6k more; definitely more, but not that much. The BRZ weighs ~2600 pounds, even with another 200 pounds (very pessimistic) of parts, it's still a welterweight; the power production easily outweighs that addition. Otherwise, aftermarket has already shown that aside from the clutch, the toyobaru twins are very competent at handling higher power through their drivetrain.

Yes, the engine and turbo are merely one part. The other parts would be injectors, an intercooler, a little bit of piping, BOV, and wastegate, as well as supporting oil lines (iirc Subaru uses journal bearings, they could have changed since then). The only unique thing needed would be intercooler cold/hot piping, everything else could be borrowed from the WRX. It is literally the same block, FA20.

BadMotorScooter > Reigntastic 07/31/2014 at 12:03

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I'd like to think a turbo could be added easily and cheaply, and maybe we'll all be surprised when they release a turbo Twin. But I think the reason they haven't is that it would change the character of the car too much, and also move it very close to another market bracket in price. No question they could do it, and as you mention, they already have the majority of the powertrain available. That's just more evidence that the reason they are not (or haven't yet) is that it would change the character or market position too much.

I'm sure Subaru doesn't want it to cannibalize WRX sales, and I cold see how Subaru might not really like Toyota selling a Subaru turbo boxer under their name. That would diminish Subaru's brand a bit. Plus I think a turbo Twin would be at least $30k, probably more, and still less than 300HP I think the numbers just look bad from a marketing position. Honda had trouble marketing 240HP S2000s for $32k 10 years ago when the HP war wasn't as hot as it is now. The Twins are not hot sellers now at $25k+, and a ~270HP turbo Twin at $30k+ doesn't sound much better from a numbers perspective.

The other thing is the 12.5 compression ratio. I think they very intentionally decided the Twins should be NA, low-torque, high-compression. I think this was very deliberate and probably a design spec and equation of car. A turbo would make it a high-torque motor, and a drift king (even more than it already is), requiring bigger, heavier, more expensive tires and wheels from the factory. It would radically change the character of the car.

Reigntastic > BadMotorScooter 07/31/2014 at 12:12

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Yes, it would somewhat cut into market share of WRX, but it is a completely different car, and FR customers are typically a different segment than the awd crowd.

The F20F in the WRX has lower compression pistons, they could easily be used in the F20. Changing the character of the car isn't a bad thing, the Toyobaru twins are underwhelming sports cars. Absolute dream to drive, fantastic handling, but more power won't make it a bad car. The car has enough power when I can leave two black stripes from the exit of a corner to the entrance of the next.

For reference, I'm not talking from internet HP figures, I've driven the FRS and BRZ on the street and track, literally just autocrossed a bone stock BRZ last weekend, and set a faster time than the owner.

It's a great car, but it would definitely benefit from a shit load more torque. Who cares if they change out the cheap Prius tires and ugly wheels? They are literally the first thing that anyone tracking these cars seriously replaces anyways, long before power mods. Just shy of 300/300 in a hypothetically 2800lb car is a great P/W ratio, the only people who wouldn't be satisfied with that power from an entry level sports car are just dick measuring youtube trolls.

It's kind of sad that my 20 y/o MR2 is faster in a straight line than a brand new FR.